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Am I Too Old To Be A Programmer?
Aug 17, 2007 10:08 perm link Readers: 9513

One of my 5 job prospects in progress decided after the first in person interview to pass on me despite acing every phone interview and hearing great feedback about my experience. It could be something else, but some people react negatively to my 25 years of experience. It's not the first time, nor do I expect it will be the last.

So am I kidding myself thinking I can still work as a programmer in today's complex software world?

No, I'm still as good as I was 20 years ago with more experience to boot. I keep up with the industry, with new technologies as much as anyone can (and more than most), and still write good code, understand how to design and architect different kinds of applications, and generally am as productive as I was in the early days when I was "the kid". But that doesn't stop people from thinking that anyone over 30 is over the hill.

Heck, I even thought that when I was the 25 year old "kid". There is truth to the idea that as people get older, they get more settled, become less interested in taking risks and possibly become dated in their thinking. Yet like all "truths" it's not a given; stereotypes by their nature are never uniform. I do know people my age who long ago gave up on programming as their original skillset became obsolete; they simply never saw the reason to stay up to date until it was too late. But I know peers like me who still love to program, stay up to date, constantly learn new technologies and generally are even better than they were at 25.

Comparatively I've known 20 year olds who were brilliant and coded well beyond their experience (and in fact "web 2.0" is filled with them). I would never stoop to say that of everyone however. I've know people in their 20's who totally sucked at producing any useful code and would never make it as a programmer for long. High age or low age you can't force everyone into the same barrel.

Programming, being adaptive at new technologies, and general coding productivity are skills not some physical trait (like my bad knees from years of playing basketball) that has to decline with age. It's true that brain function does deteriorate over your lifetime; but the brain is surprisingly resilient if it stays in use. You only get old if you let yourself be old; then it's too late.

So people can judge me based on my age and ignore any other evidence to the contrary and that's OK as long as I find reasonable people who do understand that finding good programmers is not limited to certain age groups (either too low or too high).

The thought that I am unable to code anymore and should be "retired" to just being a manager to me is pretty laughable. As long as I still stay on the bleeding edge and keep enjoying the creative art of programming, there isn't any reason for me to doubt my own ability.

It's weird to go from being too young to be that good to being too old to be anything good. Neither viewpoint is correct; I can do what I can do and that should be all that matters.

I don't even own a rocking chair, don't put me in one.

My Tags:

  • Sanjiv: Aug 17, 2007 12:14

    Could it be that your years of experience had nothing to do with it and that you think you did well on the interview when infact you did not meet their expectations?

    They probably already knew your age / years of experience when they interviewed you on the phone based on your resume so if that was a problem they wouldn't have even called you in for an in-face interview.

    Not suggesting that you suck.. just that different companies have different hiring criteria / cultures and they might not have viewed you as a good fit.

  • codist: Aug 17, 2007 13:51

    Sure it's possible, although in this case it was only a single engineer I met in person. I've not been hired in every interview I've ever had either. But it did lead me to wonder how often age creeps into people's minds.

  • Rich Collins: Aug 18, 2007 02:15

    I would be glad to discuss working with you. Feel free to contact me :)

  • bsm: Aug 18, 2007 02:38

    I agree that there's a lot of age-related nonsense out there. I'm 47 and a working programmer, about 10 years (or more) older than most of my colleagues -- or my bosses for that matter. I program because I enjoy it, and have turned down a number of 'opportunities' to do other things (like management) which I don't like as much.

    That being said, it's entirely possible that the reason they prefer younger, less experienced people is that they feel they can get more out of them. Someone who's younger, with less experience, is going to worry a lot more about a 'black mark' on their resume from a company that didn't feel that they contributed

    enough to whatever it was they were working on. Typically, this is the sort of

    behaviour you get from companies that try to bully their employees into a lot

    of unnecessary overtime because the management can't plan a project to save their lives. If they want to push someone around, they probably feel more able to get away with it with a younger employee rather than an older, more experienced one.

    Hey, I once worked for a company that laid someone off a month after he returned to work from having a heart attack because he "couldn't contribute the necessary level of effort" to the project he was assigned to. How stupid is that?

    Count your blessings and move on.

  • David: Aug 18, 2007 03:14

    I am a 48 year old programmer, I'm coding medical ontology software just now in c# 3.0 writing Linq code to query our object model in ram. I have been contracting for over a decade and my age has never been a factor. BTW I'm in the north of england.

  • hafizan: Aug 18, 2007 05:36

    I'm start programming serious only on 26 year olds.Lot of script kiddy age 20 do programming are not same as older age.Sometimes older age got a few problem.I know they are experince but sometimes their knowledger is to low.Age doesn't matter to me only who can do programming and design documentation cleary is the prefect candidate for job.New Come doesn't care of documentation ,they just code like idiot and do again(Same as me before)

  • zack: Aug 18, 2007 06:04

    Salary expectations because of # years of experience have anything to do with it maybe? In my opinion it usually makes sense to spend the extra $ to get the good guys with more experience, but I'm sure not everyone thinks that way.

  • yassaman: Aug 18, 2007 06:38

    We have the same problem in third world countries. Im 32 years old emigrant in a third world country and people say me "you are an old woman"!

    They cant think healthful...

    But i think that an old programmer (like me :)) must be a boss to . In other way cant find any job at 32...

  • mike: Aug 18, 2007 06:41

    the main thing is, an older person is much more hesitant to "drink the kool aid", where someone in their 20's can't get enough koolaid; their opinions and notions of the working world are a lot more naive and externally focused, so their heads can be filled with all sorts of unquestioned corporate-friendly priorities. Not to mention they have much less of an eye for politics and can be steamrolled right over. When the project managers under-spec the project and get it all wrong, those of us who've "been there" know they f'ed up, and we shouldn't be the ones who have to pay; the younger programmer has no clue about this and will work til 2AM for weeks in a row, fully accepting that the client's deadline is a life or death matter (its typically some boring website that has absolutely no need to be launched next friday and not say, 3 weeks later).

  • Vineet Kumar: Aug 18, 2007 08:53

    If this really is a case of you not getting the job due to your age, you should google "age discrimination" and consider contacting EEOC and/or a lawyer. This could easily be that single engineer's unconscious bias rather than an institutional policy, but either way it's insidious and outrageous, and should be stopped.

    A more tame first step may be to just contact the engineer who interviewed you and ask for honest feedback about why he passed on you. You may find that he had a legitimate reason, or you may strengthen your suspicions. Do it over email and save the response, just in case.

  • codist: Aug 18, 2007 09:19

    It's not that big of a deal, I have 4-5 other opportunities. It was more of "I wonder if" kind of moment.

  • Paul: Aug 18, 2007 10:52

    In a meeting a younger manager, male or female, will describe some change or new plan for development to follow and due to your life experience it wouldn't be unheard of to think that the vast majority of the time, you'll have an improvement to suggest or outright disagreement with the approach the manager is descrlibing. Do you keep quiet and just plug along with your programming tasks? Seems to me this is the reason its easier for the person hiring to simply float you to management in the first place.

  • Rick: Aug 18, 2007 11:37

    I'm 40 years old, and I've started looking for a new job last week. Got plenty of offers exactly because of my experience, almost all of the companies I talked to were a) dying to hire someone experience to lead their younger programmers, and b) used recruitment agencies to filter out scriptkiddies from wasting their time.

    I was a bit apprehensive at first, looking for a new job at 40, but to my great relieve it was easier then ever before, and even relatively young companies (and companies lead by people significantly younger then me) were eager to hire experienced developers.

    In my memory things were a lot different 10-20 years ago, when employers definitely preferred the young and eager. Maybe even our industry is finally growing up....

  • barbara: Aug 18, 2007 11:47

    I'm a 38-year-old *woman* - talk about a double whammy. But I still find myself taken pretty seriously as a developer - I don't deal with nearly as much gender/age discrimination as I expect to. At the same time, I've known programmers much older who really do get set in their ways, don't keep current, don't keep up with the fast pace of changes in the industry. I believe that continued success as a programmer just means being flexible, being willing and able to learn new languages and theories all the time. If you're the kind of person who can do that, you're fine. And then age can only be a positive - you have more experience with problem-solving, managing workflow, etc.

  • jcc: Aug 18, 2007 13:38

    Hi Codist,

    I am sorry that you have experienced this sort of discrimination. However, I have seen this kind of thing happen from the inside of a company, and I would like to explain what I think the reasoning of the company is.

    The company I work at expects people to move up in their career; you should _always_ be progressing as an employee, not standing still. After a few years, one should be comfortable stamping out significant tasks on one's own, negotiating the business sides of it without management help, etc.

    After 10 or 15 years, the company expects a developer to have "Team Lead"-level skills. This means that the developer should, by his mere presence, have leadership and mentoring capabilities that improves the efficiency of _other_ developers on the team.

    The company is only interested in developers who increase their skills significantly over time. Thus, the company is not interested in hiring someone with 15 years of experience in the "just-above-Jr" role, even if he would be a _damn_ good programmer for that level.

    The reason why is because the company wants developers who will grow even _more_ in the future. That 15+ year pro in the Team Lead role would be expected to be able to be an Architect in the future, and so on. They would not hire someone with 15 years of experience as a "codemonkey", because it would carry the implied assumption that this candidate will never expand in his role.

    So, it's not that the company wants you to be a manager. They just don't want you "off in a corner" developing alone. They want your talents and experience to spread out among the team and company.

    I am not saying that you don't necessarily have any of these skills -- I have no idea, I have never met you. But from the essay you wrote here, it doesn't sound like you are selling these aspects of yourself to the company. Is it possible you were exposing yourself as a "lone gunman"?

    Hopefully this explains why the "15 years experience" can count against you in interviews. It's because they expect a lot more from you than just technical abilities. This is only certain companies, of course. Microsoft (for example) has a whole career track called "Individual Contributor" for secluded code monkeys to flourish, without having to expand into this type of role. The company where I work now expects all developers to grow into leaders.

    Both models have their advantages and disadvantages. My current company (Amazon.com) is not a technology company per se; it uses technology to sell things. This may explain the difference in focus. It is more valuable to Microsoft than to Amazon.com if some hacker codemonkey goes off into the wilderness and produces a novel piece of tech, thus Amazon wants the kind of developer who has business sense, and sees technology as a means-to-an-end.

    I would say, consider in the future what _more_ companies want from a candidate with 20 years of experience than just his coding abilities. The huge efficiency gains from experienced candidates can be even greater if they have leadership as well.

  • caneusing-40yo: Aug 18, 2007 23:43

    Silicon Valley seems to discriminate on age quite a bit. I was shocked to hear Zuckerberg, Facebook CEO, openly say the two things he looks for are youth and technical ability.

    (http://photomatt.net/2007/03/24/kapor-vs-zuckerberg/)

    At another place or a different era, he would be so sued it's not funny. He didn't just stick with the idea that young people have less baggage. No, he decided to pull out the old "greatest discoveries are made by youngins" argument. I would take a 45 year old Einstein over 99.99999% of 20 year olds any day for my theoretical physics, thank you very much. When did a broad indicator like age mean more than the more specific indicators of technical ability?

  • Art Metz: Aug 19, 2007 08:57

    May I add a data point?

    I'm 54, still programming after 30 years. I've been a team lead but I never wanted to be a manager. I've gone from Fortran IV on IBM 360s to DEC's RSTS and VMS to PCs to asp.net and Ajax.

    I'm tired. I don't learn new things as quickly as I once did. When I was younger I dabbled in Lisp and Forth for the fun of it; now I look at Python and Haskell and just go "Huh?". I now work in a place which is heavily into CSS, and I Just Don't Get It.

    As for age discrimination in hiring -- I've not particularly encountered it.

  • Ed: Aug 19, 2007 15:20

    OK, I'm going to tell you what's going on and a lot of people may not like it because I will be talking about the elephant in the middle of the living room. It's about the money. Entire institutions of total B.S. are built simply to make "those who do not know what they are doing appear as if they do". Plug in whatever B.S. you want: extreme programming, UML, Rational Rose, agile programming (whatever that means?!?), and most importantly, object orientation. Real pros don't use these unless they are forced. Many of us have been "agile" for 20 or 30 years before some idiot MBA came up with the term. Institutions would rather implement some of this B.S. and plug in lower paid (and usually younger) programmers. And services firms MUST do this or perish. Why pay you $100K when they could plug in 2 $50K newbies and bill them out at $150 per hour? In IT you don't have to be good; you just have to stay one step ahead of the user. And who couldn't do that?

    My suggestion: find someone smart (they ARE out there, but not always easy to find) who understands the value of a professional who can "hit the high notes". Go to work for them. You both be a lot happier in the long run.

  • Phil: Aug 21, 2007 01:09

    One factor is the size of the market place in which you find yourself. If the market place is small with not much movement then that is rather different than New York or London where the value of specific skills is appreciated and sought. Small markets breed small minds and petty thinking. You might have become a threat because of your experience. Suggestion: learn some skills that you can market via the Net. You might find the "long tail" out there.

    I am 63, learning python, tangling with SQL Server, messing with hardware devices sending back emails via SMTP, using VB scripting, still having fun and last but not least still dreaming. I used to be a data administor, data manager and an ERP consultant, but at my age you have to be flexible. Being gentle with those who do not know any better because they are younger also helps!

  • Mark Leighton Fisher: Aug 23, 2007 10:06

    As an older software engineer with a B.S.E.E., I can remember the late 70's when electrical engineers whose experience was with vacuum tubes decided to get out of the job market rather than learn about transistor circuit design. I started with FORTRAN IV and assembly language on the CDC 6000, and now I'm working with .NET and Perl 6 (and looking at LISP and Haskell for inspiration). Although some age discrimination takes place, part of what is happening now is that some companies want you to come in and hit the ground running (already have all the required skills) but never bother to train you to run even faster (acquire new skills that can save the company time and/or money). Such companies will eventually fail, but in the meantime this mistaken attitude causes problems for job seekers.

    Ed, maybe I don't understand what you are saying. I'm a big advocate of multi-paradigm programming, which includes object-oriented programming -- encapsulating data with its methods just makes good sense, and is something I never had to be forced into using (an early exposure to Forth may have helped prepare me for O-O programming). Software engineering is a tremendously young discipline compared to civil engineering (millenia) and electrical engineering (120+ years). We are still working out the best & fastest ways to design our systems, and I am grateful for all the recent advances (learning Perl's Test::More in particular was a great awakening moment).

  • Billy Koch: Sep 05, 2007 16:41

    I have been considering in plunging into the development world. I am 36 - fixing to be 37 myself. I used to do a little bit of development about 5-6 years ago and then have moved away to more of infrastructure work. And now i realized how much I enjoyed development work and would love to go back to it. So now I'm pretty much working up the technologies that I have fallen behind on. But the question that remains for me - am I too old? or do the companies want one of those newly fresh college graduates. So, I just hope I am not wasting my time but in time we'll see. But it is inspiring to see those who have gone past the challenge and it is fustrating to see those who haven't made it through. But either way - I am hoping it will all go through not just for myself but every other developers as well.

  • FrankC: Sep 10, 2007 19:00

    I ran into the same thing last year when I was out of work. They never come out and say, "Oh, you're too old" to your face, that could get them in legal hot water, but they find some lame HR code phrase for it like, "We like your skills but you don't fit into our team dynamics."

  • Eelco Hillenius: Sep 18, 2007 11:49

    I remember a manager (who programmed for a few years himself and of course thought he was pretty good at it) a few years ago who said openly that programmers over 30 are losers. Can you believe a short sighted jerk like that? This was in Holland, where most people study things like "communication", law or business administration. The same country that has had headlines for years on that people don't do enough beta studies anymore, and that we should 'import' technical people. And we worked for a company that has a hard time finding enough qualified people for technical jobs. As nice as the company was to work with, I absolutely hated the fact that 95% of the techies there had less than 3 years experience. Smart kids alright, but it was really painful to see them make all those mistakes that experienced people typically don't make anymore.

    As far as I can judge it from living in the US now and talking with lots of US programmers, the US is a healthier place to be a programmer. Part of that is because it seems that US comps are more interested in skills they can tap now, rather than nurturing people who will stay with them for much of their careers (which probably has to do with more relaxed labour laws and a more hands-on mentality). They seem to be more interested in skills and seniority. Illustrative is that the average programmer in Holland will label him- or herself 'senior' with 3 - 5 years of experience.

    /end rant, a 36 year old programmer :-)

  • Meyer: Jan 02, 2008 03:41

    Is it just the employers in the software industry who think the older people are "obsolete". These "new technologies" that come out everyday shouldn't be a hurdle. If you are well disciplined in software engineering practices and know a language such as C++ and skill such as networking, the "new technologies" are a bit of a joke, really.

    I'm a very slow learner, and yes I am crap at programming compared to others at my University. But in the last few months when I actually got serious about it and put thought into what I was doing, my confidence has risen 10 fold. It's not about age not is it about individual ability. Anyone willing to put serious time into learning can become an extremely competitive programmer.

    Programming is a craft. The more you do it the better you get. But you have to do it right. Read software engineering books like "Design Patterns" by the gang of four. Read other books like "The Pragmatic Programmer" and the "Practice of Programming". There really are no secrets.

    As to why the employer brushed you off, I think too many employers these days are obsessed about particular languages, hypes, and particular technologies that they forget about what it means to be a good programmer.

  • Madhu: Apr 12, 2008 03:21

    Hi,

    I have worked for 11 years in programming, from COBOL to DOT NET. I have witnessed a lot of age discrimination - both in position wise and pay wise also. Older programmers are harrased a lot just for the reason they can jump as fast as younger programmers. The employer or your boss knows that, an older programmer however experienced he may be will not get an offer easily and hence keeps exploiting. One of the recent experience i had is, I was expected to work for day and night continuously for more than a week and leave the office only after solving the problem.

    I feel that DBA career would be more rewarding in this view.

  • Hadi : May 12, 2008 19:25

    I agreed with Your Thingking....

  • Add Comment

Apple's Numbers Spreadsheet - Like My Trapeze Spreadsheet But 20 Years Later
Aug 07, 2007 20:27 perm link Readers: 2602

It's interesting looking at the features and marketing behind Apple's new Numbers Spreadsheet (just added in iWork 08). So familiar to me as I and the rest of Data Tailor (Bob Murphy, Ken Clark) in 1987 released Trapeze, a spreadsheet program for the Mac with a lot of the same features (and some different).

Like Numbers, Trapeze featured smart tables (which we called blocks), charts (2D and 3D), graphics and text, all freely movable around a canvas (which we called a sheet). Blocks were related by name (either the whole block, or tables where each column had a subname). Smart resizing occurred when you change related block sizes (i.e. add rows to a block and all dependent blocks resized and shifted location if necessary).

The big difference visually of course is a 20 year newer UI, I had to build mine in the old Quickdraw, supporting only 8 colors, and running on a 8mhz 68000. Still it worked well enough that 13,000 people bought a copy before the second owner (we sold the company to someone else) eventually phased it out in 1990. I still get emails from people who miss it, a testament to its power way before the hardware really caught up. One user kept old Macs around for 10 years just to run Trapeze, which was the basis of his business modeling practice.

So it's with gentle humor that I read the Apple marketing stuff and remembering how we said much of the same things with one glaring problem: in those days we couldn't import Excel files and have it fit into our block model, and thus many people couldn't get over that hurdle. Those who saw the power of Trapeze to build large interactive models and present them in one document were able to do amazing things not possible in any other spreadsheet. But Excel killed every spreadsheet program, not just ours. Such is life.

Our solution would have been to build a spreadsheet block, exactly like what Apple has done, except we were never able to invest the time, and eventually we worked on Deltagraph which made the publisher way more money. Trapeze faded into obscurity. Until today, sort of.

So congrats to Apple for reinventing the concept in a new modern package. Better 20 years late then never!

My Tags:

  • Robert MacLeay: Aug 07, 2007 23:12

    AND it had a better function set than Excel has even today!

    I even used it for desktop publishing before Quark came along.

    Running on System 6 it was great, but it never worked right under System 7.

  • Jim Harrison: Aug 08, 2007 05:26

    There were a number of great ideas in competing software packages in the late '80s and early '90s, before they were killed off by MS Office. It's interesting to speculate what the world might be like if a standard data container (OpenDoc) had been successful in preventing proprietary file lock-in and allowed multiple tools to continue to compete based on UI, etc. In any case, it's great to see worthy ideas from that time reappear.

  • codist: Aug 08, 2007 07:30

    I also contributed to Persuasion, a presentation app from Aldus/Adobe that ultimately got killed off by Office having Powerpoint in it for "free".

  • Art Busbey: Aug 08, 2007 07:42

    Using the block design and matrix algebra I had some really elegant multivariate stat sheets running - far easier to understand and implement than in Excel. I also miss Trapeze... so elegant and obvious (IMHO).

  • Stephen: Aug 08, 2007 11:17

    You must mean 8 bit color. My Mac II did 256 colors in 1987. Now it has 24 bit color. It also does 8 bit gray, something my PC still doesn't do.

    Does color matter much to a numeric spreadsheet? Did it create graphs? CGA would have been enough for that. Was there a DOS port?

  • codist: Aug 08, 2007 12:44

    No the original quickdraw color model was 3 bit color, I wrote to that spec in 1986. Once color was actually shipped they added a real 8 bit color model later on in 1987. Color at the time was new. It was useful for presentation of data (like charts) which was one of Trapeze's strengths. At the time spreadsheets were used for analysis only. Still even with our color support most printers were still black and white.

    Mac version only.

  • David Foster: Aug 08, 2007 20:24

    I am so excited. I was one of those 13,000 users of Trapeze in the 1987-1989 era and have always missed the program. I did some amazing stuff with the program handling data from plate readers while a scientist at Genentech. It took awhile to learn, but for many tasks it was much more adaptable than Excel and it excelled at generating appealing output. I discovered the old manual and a floppy the other day while rummaging around in a very old box and must admit I wished I could have pushed the disk into my MacPro (an absolute impossibility of course) and played around with it again. I am excited that perhaps I can do far better than that now. I can predict that most Excel power users will find this program perplexing and many won't get it unless they approach it from a new perspective and build anew, discarding their past worksheets. It may be too much to hope that the Excel generation will take the effort, but at least the millions now being introduced to Mac computing may have the opportunity to discover there is more than one way to skin a spreadsheet.

  • codist: Aug 08, 2007 21:49

    I don't have a copy of Trapeze anymore. There is a macplus emulator called "vMac" (a couple of versions exist) but I don't know if it works on Tiger.

  • Michael Toy: Aug 10, 2007 12:48

    When I heard about Numbers I said to myself "Sounds like Trapeze, finally". I'm one of the 13,000 (in fact i just looked, i still have my manual and floppies) and have missed Trapeze ever since my Macs grew up enough to no longer be able to run Trapeze.

    Trapeze was "insanely great", I salute you and your co-developers. I'll be thinking of you, and silently thanking you, every time I stretch out a block of data in Numbers.

  • codist: Aug 12, 2007 16:29

    There were many times during the past years I wanted to write Trapeze over again. Guess I don't need to now. Of course Trapeze had more features than Numbers, but writing it just for fun now would be too much work...

  • Nelson Byrne: Aug 13, 2007 14:58

    Michael Toy: "Trapeze was "insanely great", I salute you and your co-developers."

    I second that. It made nice graphs, too. The auto block resizing was wonderful. One could include text blocks for comments and explanation. The formulas were SOO easy to use and easy to understand and explain. I don't think Excel ever *had* a Gudermannian function, by the way.

    Blocks would reveal their names with cmd-y, very handy. Ah, we miss it today.

    And it was a database handler too.

    It was the single best app I ever owned.

    About all it lacked was cell phone capability.

    (I also used and liked Persuasion before it got eaten by someone - Aldus?)

    (and I used DeltaGraph a lot after Trapeze)

    Kudos to the developers. You must all still be very proud.

  • GrahamW: Aug 13, 2007 15:19

    Another ex-Trapeze user. Have been lamenting lack of independent blocks ever since... funny how it's now *twenty* &^%$# years!

  • Bob Murphy: Aug 13, 2007 18:33

    Andrew came up with the basic idea for the program, which was to have growable blocks and layout capabiities. For at least the first major version, he also did the entire user interface, and all graphics, including the charts. Ken did a lot of underlying guts, like memory management and the calculation ordering (which, if I'm not mistaken, was the first natural-order approach to spreadsheet-type calculations). And I did the formula parser and the block-based calculations.

    That's pretty funny about the Gudermannian. I threw it in as a joke - never thought anyone would actually pay attention to it. :-) Anyway, it's nice to hear people still like Trapeze!

  • king: Aug 17, 2007 22:15

    i searched for screenshots ofthis program yet i couldnt find any,

    can u provide some?

  • codist: Aug 18, 2007 09:21

    I haven't been able to run Trapeze in like 15 years, so the only screen shots are in the old manual I still have, which aren't very useful.

  • Gary Lang: Aug 19, 2007 18:59

    I installed Numbers yesterday and wondered if anyone would remember Trapeze. I always thought Trapeze was a work of art, and was surprised to see these useful notions finally come out again.

    And bobert - where are you? Give me a buzz.

  • Rob Beynon: Aug 29, 2007 14:17

    I used to use Trapeze to write highly specific and valuable laboratory tools. The control of tables, the ability to break away from rows and columns, and the functions - matrix arithmetic for example. It was so far ahead of its time that the learning curve was a bit steep, and Excel won over, against common sense and logic. But, if it ever came back again...I still have the Trapeze manual for sentimental reasons.

  • Gavnodes: Sep 09, 2007 05:30

    I was another Trapeze fan who was sorry to see it go. I kept my manuals and floppies around in the hope it would reappear, but it never did (now I know why!).

    I'm glad Apple has taken up the baton, as it were. It's just a pity you're not getting the recognition you richly deserve for it.

    Gav

  • Steve Wille: Sep 09, 2007 19:51

    One problem with running Trapeze in modern simulator environments is that I think it is not 32-bit clean (for those of you that remember that MacOS issue).

    To me, the similarity between Trapeze and Numbers is superficial. The real power of Trapeze was in the formula-per-block concept and the clever way in which block sized themselves based on the inputs, all of which are foreign to Numbers.

    Sitting on my to-do someday list is to write a new modern freeware or shareware Mac application that borrows these brilliant aspects of Trapeze's design. I wish the source for Trapeze had been released into the public domain when it was mothballed. It a shame that this work is just sitting there gathering dust or was destroyed.

    Another possibility might be for Apple to bolt-on these sorts of features in a future version of Numbers. This might be done with little disruption to the current functionality (basically a table could have a single formula or per-cell formulas). It would be nice to have Trapeze's power living inside the high-quality and feature-rich graphic canvas implemented in Numbers.

  • codist: Sep 10, 2007 12:53

    I don't even have a copy of the source anymore. I do still know the core functionality so I'm sure I could rebuild it again, give suitable resources. But it's too complex to do part time.

  • Vern Klukas: Mar 15, 2008 13:33

    I still have my Trapeze tshirt, "fly through the figures with the greatest of ease".

    And the user mentioned doing the business modelling could quite possibly be a pal of mine, though there could of course be many of those, given how excellent Trapeze was for scenario modelling.

  • David Dlugos: Mar 15, 2008 15:42

    >One user kept old Macs around for 10 years just to run Trapeze, which was the basis of his business modeling practice.

    A friend (hi Vern) pointed me to this blog, pretty sure the above was me

    I still can run it, and until OS 7.6 quit talking to my OS X machines i was using it fairly regularily. I'd still like to get it running again... my hope is that those trying to keep Classic running in Leopard will build an emulator that will also run 7.6.1, the couple times i have attempted to make them work, i haven't been able to get them to boot.

    Trapeze -- even on my ancient 50/100 68040 machine -- still runs circles around Excel. Numbers may have a veneer of what Trapeze looked like, but when you actually try to do something not really... and if you actually try to write a program in numbers it falls on its face.

    dave

  • Galen Gisler: Jun 17, 2008 01:13

    I too was one of those 13,000, and did lots of work with Trapeze. I remember the MacUser review that effectively sank the project, and thought at the time how wrong it was. It was a great program to use, and gave me very useful insights into the data I was examining (outputs of numerical simulations run on supercomputers) that would have taken much longer with Excel.

    I'm brand new to Numbers as of this month, and reminded, as other readers of this column have been, of how great and innovative Trapeze was.

    I still have some Trapeze files hanging around that I haven't been able to open in many years, analyses of particle acceleration studies that we did in the late 1980s. Questions arise regarding those studies that aren't answered by the reports we wrote, so it might be useful to examine them again. Is the format of Trapeze files sufficiently documented that an importer for Numbers might be written?

    Galen

  • codist: Jun 18, 2008 18:01

    I no longer even have the source. If you still have some old install disks, I think someone wrote a mac plus emulator (Mini vMac), maybe its possible to rerun it. No clue though. All I have left is a manual and memories. The file format was binary but after 20 years I remember nothing of it.

  • David Dlugos: Jun 26, 2008 10:22

    I have given lots of thot to a resurrenction of Trapeze. In the end the coming of the Intel Macs and no Classic will hopefully lead to better & more robust Classic emulators that will allow the running of Trapeze -- i still have very valuable work in Trapeze and would use it in an emulator over any spreadsheet out there.

    I don't think Numbers is anywhere close to powerful enuff to support a Trapeze sheet (or Excel for that matter). One of the Math processors like Octave would have a better chance. The Trapeze text format would be the only viable way of exchange -- which means you'd have to get the sheets open long enuff to export them.

    dave

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Looking For Work Is More Work Than Working
Aug 02, 2007 16:10 perm link Readers: 7342

Whether you are looking for a contract, or a consulting gig, or a permanent position, the process of finding and cementing the deal is a lot of work. I am in the midst of this right now, and what a whopping pain in the butt it is.

I know several folks who have worked for the same company for most or all of their career, and it's tough to explain how difficult looking is, even when you have lots of potential jobs. Being a sales person is not an inherent skill most programmers have; living on the phone is about as far from what I do best as I can get. Just getting recruiters to send an email instead of calling is tough enough, most of what I get is worthless and it's easier to reject if you can read the description instead of chatting for hours with everyone who calls.

The last week or so I must have gotten 100 calls and emails, out of them maybe 10 were worth following up on. It's also clear that there are a lot of sourcers out there trolling for resumes (a sourcer is basically a recruiter front end person, they are paid for contacts and nothing more). It's funny how many times I get the same job from many different people. In fact every recruiter in my home area looking for Documentum developers contacts me, as my old position at company X (well chronicled in the WTF series) still hasn't been filled even as they have paid someone $120/hr for the last year who is not a developer. So they are stuck being unable to hire someone to do my job, but of course they wouldn't hire me (at $120/hr I'd help them out of course). I get the impression that some jobs (assuming they are real) are just unfillable.

I have learned via experimentation that it works better when recruiters contact you, instead of the other way around. Put your resume on dice.com, for example, and fill out as many skills as you can. Within a few days hordes of recruiters will contact you. Apply to jobs you see on dice (or monster, etc) directly, and you'll get barely a peep of replies. Then a few months after you start working you will get job requests all the time. I've always suspected that posted jobs are actually resume bait.

Of course if you find jobs posted by an actual employer, or by an in-house recruiter, contacting them directly can sometimes be a good strategy depending on the company. The most interesting position I am pursuing came about this way. Of course for many large corporations this is pointless; locally Lockheed (where the F-16 fighter is made) has something like 2.5 million resumes in their database.

The best plan is always to work though someone you know at the company. Almost everyone I know at Lockheed got a job via this method despite the 2.5 million resumes. Using LinkedIn (or Facebook now) to make contacts can work if your contacts are good and they work at places you want to work. I haven't done this very much yet.

Another good thing is geoflexibility (I don't think it's a real word, but it works); if you don't mind working somewhere besides home (or moving) then there are many more opportunities. This is easier for contract or consulting gigs but you can make it work with the right fulltime job as well. I've done this myself and don't mind it. These days even fulltime jobs are more temporary than most employers would like.

After dealing with the first contacts and getting some good ones, you have to deal with the dreaded phone screens, tests, or whatever kind of torture the prospective employer prefers to do. This has changed mightily from my first experiences in the 80's. Everyone assumes your resume is complete fiction, and that you must be a ditch digger looking to advance, so they need to discover if you know anything at all. It's said commentary on this industry and it may be necessary but it's still mighty irritating to have to answer basic programming questions over and over. Even worse are the ones where they want you to supply information from memory that any reasonable programmer would look up in the documentation or let their IDE supply. One interviewer (many years ago) spent 30 minutes asking about the definitions of object oriented programming terms before I begged for mercy and never dealt with that company again.

Sometimes they want you to take a test (like BrainBench) which are usually way out of date and basically memorization tests like something you would take in college. The best system for weeding out unqualified people I've come across was a written test, where on your own time you write sql for a given database schema, write java code with certain requirements, write some XSL to convert given XML data into HTML, describe how to solve a few coding scenarios, etc. This one took me a couple hours or so to do (at home) and clearly showed I could follow and interpret requirements for the areas the company was interested in. Since they weren't simple questions but required some actual work (and thus couldn't just be copied from a website) it gave the employer a good feeling about the employee (in this case me). I've seen these used far to little. The employer admitted a lot of people refused to do the work, and only a few people did a decent job, so it did serve a purpose. I'd rather do a little real work and avoid the OO programming quiz.

Interviews on the phone and in person are always done these days. Today, however, there seems to be way more interviews than people used to do. I went to one interview once where there were 4 gang interviews in a row all with writing code on the board, solving logic puzzles and challenges to everything I said. Afterwards I was ready to start digging ditches (where I wouldn't be asked what is dirt? what is a shovel? why don't you like round shovels?). Google is know for these all day interviews; I might find working in their R&D group interesting (given my search interests) but for the hideous gauntlet interview process.

I once took a contract in California at Remedy in 1994 sight unseen based on my resume and 10 minute phone call, even though I was in Texas at the time. Sadly that kind of simple process is history unless you are a famous programmer. Today it's all about weeding out the hordes of unqualified programmers out there.

My looking for work is always an exercise in look for someone interesting, I hate doing something boring and pedestrian. Of course you can't always find that ideal job so sometimes you have to compromise, or start your own company, or both. Working for yourself is ultimately the most rewarding, until you make no money; then it's the worst job in the world (no one to blame, argh!).

So for now I work the phones, answer irritating questions, fight with armies of recruiters and sourcers, and ultimately whittle down the list to a manageable set of choices. I also keep wishing for a better way, an easier way, a more pleasant way to find a paying gig.

Either that or a foolproof way to win the lottery.

My Tags:

  • Stephen: Aug 06, 2007 15:27

    I'm doing that, but also doing the full time job. Need to have something lined up when the contract is finally over.

    Yeah it's a drag. And, it's everything you've said.

    I listen to podcasts. I read books. Reading a book is three times faster than listening to someone read it to you (YMMV). So, i'd rather they sent me boilerplate by email than

    talk at me. What you gonna do?

    I also do Unix. So, they want my resume in Word. Feh. Worse, they want me to fill out

    an application using Word, and another using Excel. OpenOffice doesn't quite do that

    for me.

  • David Pickett: Aug 12, 2007 09:54

    Although, to add a counterbalancing experience, I got interviews, and an offer, at Lockheed after an in-house recruiter there found my resume in a database (the one the Army lets you use for free when you're getting out). I didn't end up working there, though. For one thing, I had a hard time buying the recruiter's contention that really, the cost of living in Sunnyvale was more or less the same as in Minneapolis. Right....

  • Frank Sauer: Aug 15, 2007 15:17

    As someone who is not a programmer, but a retired sales executive. I would suggest getting a copy of "What color is your parachute" by Richard Bolles. He is the guru on how to job-hunter and I have recommended it for the past 20 years. It's updated yearly.

  • Kelly Collier: Oct 02, 2007 18:21

    I read your comments carefully. I'm a recruiter in DC with a Documentum Developer position open in New Carrollton, MD... End client is IRS. Any interest? I'll send it all in an e-mail, but before I send your resume, we'll have to meet...5 minutes at the most and I'll come to you if you're in the DC area. Thoughts? I can be reached at kellybcollier@thegoalinc.com or (dare I?) 202-422-8766. Have a great evening.

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